• http://seowebmaster.com/ ★ ★ Search Engines WEB ★ ★

    People who are patronizing SEO, are probably doing so because of their inability to get consistant high rankings for competative queries.

    Any who Google has the option of JUST searching the PPCs as exclusive listings. The overall results are relevant but mediocre.

    It is now impossible for a spam site to get a decent ranking for any reasonably moderately popular query on any of the major search engines.

    Collectively, the top 20 on the majors are as spam free as they have been since their beginnings.

    One could disagree with their relevance prorities – but no one could point to any spam making it that far and staying.

    One downside to all of this, is the plight of the new sites or the small businesses to compete visibly – and therefore – have no other option but to use PPCs or get a Yahoo directory listing.

    Another downside to this is that for certain popular searches, Google is now showing Reference sites in the SERPs; it has then become more efficient to excusively search PPCs for commerical sites.

    Sergey did justify this bias by stating that
    they felt people searching for competive terms were seeking information as opposed to shopping.

  • http://www.emarketingperformance.com st0n3y

    Nobody would think that a 1000 piece puzzle is rocket science, but very few people have the kind of time or patience to put one together. SEO is similar to putting together a puzzle, but instead of 1000 pieces that can be put together by site, they must be put together by knowledge. The knowledge is out there and attainable, but not many people have the time or patience to do it. changing oil in a car isn’t rocket science, nor is tiling a floor, but I do neither of those because I don’t have (nor want) the knowledge, I’d rather pay someone else who does. To me, both of those things ARE rocket science for that very reason.

    SEO is a lot of work and requires a lot of time to do it and do it right. Those that don’t respect that prove that they really know nothing about it at all.

  • http://seo-theory.blogspot.com/ Michael Martinez

    You may not want people to diss SEO, but the SEO community does a horrible job of explaining and promoting itself. Today we’re still wrangling with the issue of ethics, making us look like a gang of tin men.

    The extortion campaign currently being conducted against Ted Leonsis for control of his name space (look at the paid ads running under that query) is a perfect example of just how low some people in the community are willing to stoop.

    I think SEO is in for a year or more of being beaten up on by all sorts of pundits.

    It’s probably an ass-kicking that is long overdue.

  • http://www.did-it.com/blog/ diditcom

    Danny correctly surmises that I nowhere have equated SEO practitioners in general with SEO spammers. Quite the contrary; SEO practitioners, for the most part are NOT SEO spammers.

    However, some SEOs or the salespeople working for SEO firms sell SEO as a way to get a site to the top of he listings and never ask (or mention) that the marketer’s site will actually have to be both relevant and respected (based on links) to stay there.

    On the other hand, as Danny points out some sites don’t get the rankings they deserve based on the quality of their content and their reputations. These marketers should absolutely either learn SEO, or hire a professional. Those seeking to learn SEO have several options, including all the usual conferences plus the upcoming Search Marketing Expo. Courses and training are also available from the DMA, SEMPO (coming soon), as well as several other organizations.

    As to the relevance creep of paid listings over organic, this may take years, but the economic drivers are in place and the transition will occur in the fringes first (local search where a searcher does not specify city/location is already much more relevant for paid listings most of the time). Marketers are being pushed by all engines, to use more exact match, make landing pages more relevant (to increase conversion and quality scores), and make the titles and descriptions highly relevant. Economic friction slows this process down for the low volume terms. Both SEOs and paid search enthusiasts are mining the tail, but the paid search enthusiasts will have to remain relevant as soon as the competition joins them in the tail.

    The search engines have two very strong incentives, one is to push to make the paid listings more relevant so they can monetize their traffic better, the other is to keep the organic listings as relevant as possible or risk losing their audience. That means the engine’s anti-spam teams are working heard to make sure that only ethical SEO works, long term. Instead of testing SEO/PPC relevance for Danny, let’s instead look at the keyword SEO. http://www.google.com/search?q=seo Results are mixed ;-)

    The next few years are going to be very interesting.

  • http://www.brokerblogger.com/brokerblogger/2006/05/ppc_abuse_of_go.html Brokerblogger

    While I wasn’t surprised to see Kevin Lee defend his partner’s position, I was surprised to see a member of the board of SEMPO appear to resort to “Donald Trump vs. Rosie O’Donnell “attack hook” (Todd Malicoat’s appropriate keyword evaluation) tactics. The producers of the “View” love the “ratings bait”, but I don’t think that prospective advertisers get a “warm and fuzzy” feeling from reading this kind of overall negative clutter when they are trying to decide where to invest their limited marketing budgets.

    My opinion is that Kevin fails to see that the “economic drivers” are in place for organic too, as prices for both SEO and PPC go up. Why, because marketers will have to learn more quickly that quality conversions and ROI are king for both, and not just clicks. The bottom line is if the organic results don’t continue to grow in relevancy, the PPC ads will get viewed, clicked on, and converted less for that “lag behind” SE, as well as for the PPC service companies and their clients. The “trust factor” will always be with the organic results, IMO. The consumer end-user is ultimately “in control” as the president of the ANA recently said. Those analytic results will eventually control the advertiser-marketers.

    Kevin is now being more diplomatic in explaining his position better, but I can’t help taking away from all this an analogy of “Tupac SEO vs. Notorious Did-it

  • http://www.elixirsystems.com Fionn

    What I find most dissapointing in all of this is that the leaders of a major agency in the search engine marketing industry would be so reckless about attacking another area of the industry. The industry does not need this. The industry needs unity not public fighting. What the industry needs is debate on how to raise the profesional standards in the industry not industry ‘leaders’ taking cheap shots at any one sector that they do not provide services in. I too have a lot of respect for Kevin Lee I never heard of David Pasternack until this incident but in my opinion this is very careless and insensitive.

    More confusing and in this case inaccurate information being served up to the already completely confused consumers of search not good not good at all.

  • http://www.thinkseer.com wilreynolds

    I think we all hit a threshold where we start thinking this stuff is simple, but Danny you hit the nail on the head. All it takes is a few meetings / conferences to realize that we have a lot of knowledge that is just *snap* at our fingertips. But we have confidence in that info because many of us have been researching / testing for a while.

    With that said, I recently spoke with a company who has been burned by 3 SEO companies and were out there looking for a new one. One firm told them cold fusion couldn’t be optimized, the other mentioned something about needing at least a page rank 5 to compete for terms.

    It just shocks me at the amount of know it alls who run SEO (or sell it) who don’t know squat, hurting the industry as a whole. I can’t wait for a shakeout. ARGHHH!!!! I find myself educating so many people I can’t even work with just to hopefully keep them from getting snowed by BS SEO companies.

    Rant over, Danny thanks for the defense, well done.

  • http://blogs.commerce360.com Craig Danuloff

    The mistake trail begins with Dave’s initial assertion that slow revenue growth for SEO firms has something to do with the complexity of SEO. It likely has a lot more to do with the marketing of SEO – clients pouring millions into paid search don’t understand even the basics of the organic side – they don’t know why to spend big money on SEO or what they’ll get if they do. If Kevin’s post forces SEO’s to better explain what they do and its value then he just may have done the industry an unintentional favor.

    I’ve taken a shot in this post pointing out that while basic optimization is easy, great results are definitely not. If marketers don’t understand the value and poential of SEO they’ll continue to stick exclusively with the very easy to understand paid side.

  • http://paisley.blogs.friendster.com/my_blog/2007/02/dave_pasternack.html M/C/C Public Relations

    user Id test..

  • http://paisley.blogs.friendster.com/my_blog/2007/02/dave_pasternack.html M/C/C Public Relations


    You and I (paisley) have been doing this for years… You’ve made a career talking about it.. (gotta love Meckler Media!)

    Some people (Jill Whalen) make a living talking about it at seminars.. (i guess she makes a living, i don’t know..)

    Some of us, keep our mouth shut, file copyrights on our SEO practices and do good work following the rules and don’t play into all the this, link exhange, that crap..

    until pontiac does stupid advertising locally.. or..

    …until an assclown like Dave Pasternack decides that he knows something and tries to do a lame ass PR stunt.. (we will give $1000 dollars to charity X if you link to our page….. )
    by discrediting SEO.. SEO the right way like I’ve practiced since webcrawler.. well since they banned my old URL for being all of the the top 30 results for 8 terms back in 1996.. and i got my hand slapped..

    No, it’s not rocket science, it’s ontology, (DMOZ, Yahoo! Dir.), it’s psychology, (what terms do people search for concerning my client that are specific to those people that are in my client’s industry, i.e. “epc engineering”), it’s HTML, it’s XML, it’s php vs. asp vs. perl vs. cgi, it’s noticing that Yahoo! on a monday will use your directory listing as the title but on tuesday they were using the stuff from my “title” tag, vs. all those other jerks out there using doorway pages, decpetive redirects and .. which I just removed from a client’s site but can’t state who due to an NDA here.. but try Googling their name (the SEO firm’s) and notice they don’t come up.. lol..

    Dave Pasternack shouldn’t be as hard as pontiac..
    but he just became the poster boy for PPC twits..

    March 1st is the date… what time? and yes it matters… what geographic location will the search be made from? yes that matters too.. he wants to call the legitimate SEO Professionals out.. ok.. i’ll step up.. Geesh, no talent PPC Assclown..

    FYI.. anyone else particiapting in the public bitchslap of Dave Pasternack.. please follow these guildines…

    – No links to did-it.com or any pages on his companies website..
    – mention his title and his name and the company he works for.. let’s make sure everyone knows his position.. and who he works for..
    – anyone having personal information like his cell phone, wife’s name, SSN, home address, vehicle license plate.. if you aren’t sure the legality of what’s posted send them to me..


  • http://www.seohawk.com Search Engine Optimization India : SEO HAWK

    The situation is really grave on Google Adwords. Few months back we observed one of our client’s websites received hundreds of clicks from competitors.

    We tried reporting to Google that we were advertising on google.co.uk, and the clicks we have received are from different country. Moreover 100 clicks were fouund from one single location.

    When we mailed Google we were surprised to find that they justified clicks, and reported back that even if somebody from one IP clicks 100 times on your AD, it will be considered as 100 different authentic clicks :(

    Google is following a monopoly to maximize their revenues through Google Adwords. This is something which is making Google lag behind other search engines like Yahoo, and MSN.

    Google became popular because of its latest/accurate results. These days Google is surely aiming to deliver accurate results , but their ranking filters and algorithm can eventually hit back Google like a Boomerang.

    They are trying to maximize their Adwords/Adsense revenue, and to enable this they are deliberately holding back ranking of several useful websites. Whenever I have to search for some latest news, free software, free script etc etc, I have to rush immediately to MSN since it delivers latest results. Moreover their Image search is far much advance than Google ;)

    These days even Yahoo is gaining pace over Google by delivering latest results in their search engine. Surely Google has to wake up before it is too late. Their useless filters are making life miserable for genuine websites/forums to score top rankings on Google. Moreover it is making life miserable for search users by restricting their search results.